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White Man's Burden

Elizabeth Thompson Tells the Tale of a
Reformed White Supremacist in Blink

- Interview by K.M. Soehnlein. Reprinted with permission from Release Print: The Magazine of the Film Arts Foundation (www.filmarts.org), July/August 2000 issue.

In 1996 Elizabeth Thompson read an article in San Francisco Focus magazine about Greg Withrow, a high profile white supremacist-the hand-picked protegÈ of White Aryan Resistance leader Tom Metzger-who had turned his back on the movement and renounced its ideology. The story of Withrow's conversion was dramatic: he had fallen in love with a woman whose parents had fled Nazi Germany, and through their relationship he'd come to see the error of his ways. Withrow's white supremacist comrades lashed out at him; in one widely reported incident, he was beaten, knifed and nailed to a board by a gang of skinheads-a "crucifixion" that made his transformation complete.

Thompson, a Bay Area documentary producer whose credits include David Collier's For Better or for Worse, recognized in Withrow's story the stuff of compelling filmmaking. Though Withrow was living in hiding somewhere in Northern California, Thompson tracked him down through the Anti-Defamation League, which had raised money for Withrow to have his swastika tattoos surgically removed. After several phone conversations marked by Withrow's suspicions about her intentions, Thompson was invited for a visit-with explicit instructions not to tell anyone where she was going.

This initial paranoia would play itself out again and again over the four and half years it took Thompson to make Blink, her one-hour documentary about Withrow's life and the larger issues surrounding it. Filmmaker and subject alike had to wade through a morass of what Thompson now refers to as "some pretty serious trust issues." Withrow, ambivalent about exposing himself on camera, dropped out of the film several times; Thompson, struggling with a growing conviction that Withrow was lying to her about key points of his biography, constantly had to regain his confidence, even as she was doubting his story. The journey from their initial phone call to the film's national television debut this month on P.O.V. was a long and bumpy road that Thompson says has left her feeling "like I've given birth to Rosemary's Baby."

Though she may look at her creation and, like Mia Farrow in the Polanski film, wonder what in hell she has just delivered, Thompson need not worry. Blink is a mesmerizing portrait of a tormented man attempting to rebuild an identity. It's also an intellectually deft examination of how extreme racism is played out in the American media.

In attempting to push beyond the tidy before-and-after conversion story relayed in the press, Thompson inexorably delved into Withrow's psyche-an unsettling place to be. Greg Withrow is a man who at certain moments displays a finely tuned emotional intelligence-as when he recalls his fearsome alcoholic father threatening to throw a pot of boiling water on him if he didn't beat up a black friend he'd brought home from school. "I was taught to fear long before I was taught to hate," Withrow tells Thompson. This is the Withrow whose Latina wife and Latino best friend testify to his revived spirit, his triumph over a racist past. But there's also the Withrow who, recounting his days in youth prison, recites: "What do you call a conservative? A liberal who's been mugged. What do you call a racist? A conservative who's been raped and beaten"-in such a resolute tone of voice that you are left wondering just how successfully he has outrun his demons.

In order to bridge the gap between the reformed Withrow and the haunted Withrow, Thompson employs stylized, lyrical footage designed to interpret her subject's inner landscape: high-contrast black and white images of Withrow's daily martial arts regimen; color-saturated Super-8 footage of the park in San Francisco's Chinatown where Withrow, as a homeless teenager, spent lonely nights; re-staged scenes of a gang of skinheads romping through an urban landscape. The filmmaker also turns occasionally to talking-head interviews with writers like Jessie Daniels, author of White Lies-writers who wrap Withrow's story, and the mainstream media's depiction of it, in an intellectual bundle.

Blink is Thompson's first solo directing effort. In addition to working as a producer, she is an oft-employed documentary D.P., and has shot for a variety of projects including Regret to Inform, Rachel's Daughters and Means of Grace. Her documentary path began years ago, when she was asked by a co-worker at her Silicon Valley job what she would do if she could choose any job she wanted. "I blurted out, 'Oh, I think I'd be a documentary filmmaker,'" Thompson remembers. "I didn't really know what I was talking about, but I couldn't get it out of my head." A seed had been planted; she eventually left her job, enrolled in Stanford's documentary film program and set up her own production company.

Saving her highest praise for the crew that made Blink possible-editor Elizabeth Finlayson, cameramen Adam Beckman, Michael Anderson and Tom Harting, sound recordist Kevin Brown and sound designers Spencer Critchley and Marco D'Ambrosio-Thompson is notably more tentative in discussing her subject. One senses the personal toll of being in such close contact with a prickly, even volatile character like Withrow, and perhaps a certain caution in discussing him beyond the balanced artistic portrait she worked so tirelessly to create.

Thompson talked to Release Print in May, at a cafÈ near her home in Palo Alto, California.

RP: What was your interest in this story?

I'm interested in making sense of violence on a very personal level, and I'm also interested in the question of transformation and what that means-and this seemed like a very dramatic display of transformation. I was also interested in the way racism plays out in the American imagination. How is it that one goes from fear to paranoia to hate, to the point where violence against an entire group of people makes logical sense to someone?

I assume you didn't bring a camera and tape recorder to your first meeting with Greg Withrow.

Trust has really been the most challenging, the most delicate aspect of this process. On the one hand Greg has been exploited by the media; on the other hand he knows how to exploit the media. He gets into this dance of wanting media attention, but then feeling deeply victimized by how his story is sensationalized. Even though he participates, he ends up feeling angry about it as well. The media has told his story in very black and white terms, which never feels fair to anybody. I wanted him to understand that the kind of documentaries I make are different from these "bad guy turns good guy" stories on TV.

There's a scene where he's in his car with his martial arts sensei, and you're in the back seat shooting him, which struck me as more intimate even than being in his house or on his property. You're in his daily flow at this point.

That's an astute observation, because actually before that shoot we'd had a falling out. Just to back up: Every April of every year he dropped out of the film, and it would take a couple of months of my writing letters and him returning them, then going up there and spending time with him and his wife and talking things through. In any case, to answer your question, I arrived two days in advance just to get back on track. We went on a long walk to talk about things. I think he felt that-it's a very classic documentary problem-he felt that I was wanting him to perform for the camera, and I felt that he was acting for the camera and it was inauthentic. We had to get together to talk about that. But as a result, I did get some more intimate moments, like in the back of the car. He tended to trust me when I took the time to be very clear about what I intended.

I was intrigued by the fact that early in the film you interviewed him standing up in his house. It struck me as a very dynamic way to see him.

Part of the way he expresses himself is through this physicality. The way he occupies space-you see his rage. But it was also a question of trust. His experience had been with the networks that go in there, sit him down in a chair, mic him, set up the three-point lighting and hold him there for an hour or two. I asked him which he would prefer. He preferred to be able to walk away if he wanted to, or to sit on the ground if he wanted to. So I chose to put a lavalier mic on him, not do the three point-lighting and just do it hand-held. To give him more freedom.

You went to Northern California over the course of four years. How many times did you visit?

When he initially agreed to the project, I went up there right away. I thought, I'm going to get some footage in the can, as much as I can, just in case, and I'll use that to cut together a sample reel. I had ideas stylistically about how I wanted to tell the film, but I wasn't sure it was going to work, to combine this very evocative, more intuitive footage with this very raw, hand-held interview. Then it was about a year and a half before I went back, because I got sick with chicken pox and then mono, back to back. I was going through a whole existential crisis because I was suddenly unable to work or raise money for the film. Really, when I wrote the ITVS proposal for funding, I was on my last leg. I thought, if I don't get money, I'll just cut together a short piece and be done with it. But then when I did get the money, there were four or five more shoots, something like that.

At what point did you realize you wanted to include the more poetic footage?

The poetic footage is really to signal the audience that this is an interior film. This is about the dance between the inside and the outside. Let me back up and say something: I did not always trust what he was telling me. Halfway through the film I started to have some serious doubts about the way the more dramatic elements of his story were reported in the press. But the one thing I did trust was that there was some emotional logic that was authentic and real. There was some truth in that. I was trying to connect with his own self-mythologizing, how he perceives the world, the narrative he creates about his world. I wanted to evoke the feeling of being in the [white power] movement, for example, with the footage of skinheads. I didn't have any literal footage of him in the movement and I didn't really want to go there. It was really about evoking the emotional truth behind that kind of rage and alienation.

So did you round up a bunch of skinheads to shoot those scenes?

They weren't skinheads. One of them's a Buddhist monk, a couple of them are gay, I think there might have been one Jewish guy. It was a really fun shoot, because it was shot without sound, and they were really nice guys. When I was directing it I was trying to get them angry at the world. They were shouting as they were running around, but they were shouting things like, "I fucking love you, brother!" and "You fucking Nazi, why can't you love the world?"

Getting back to the issue of truth, the big question that emerges about Greg's story is whether or not his "crucifixion" happened. You have an interview with a former friend who says that if it happened, Greg did it to himself. Then you show the Donohue footage, where Phil Donohue is pointing to the scar on Greg's hand, and you can't see any scar there.

But the audience is going, "Yeah, I see it, I see it!"

The crucifixion seems like a topic you would have to raise very tactfully.

Yeah, because it's a really big part of his story. I did ask him about it a couple of different times and just did not trust his answer. I doubted the veracity of his story, but on the other hand I didn't want to bog down the film in the question of "Did he do it, or did he not do it?" And I also didn't want to provide a venue for his lies. It became more interesting to me when I started to suspect that he had staged it somehow, because it made me wonder what was going on in this man's soul that he would rig this. How does this fit into the larger narrative that he is living by? Why is it that violence holds out this promise of transformation? How does this fit into white supremacist thinking? It was an interesting way of looking at how the media represents racism and racists. People are always looking for the "full recovery" story. He bought into that.

In your interview with Jessie Daniels, she suggests that someone like Greg Withrow, in his redemption, lets everyone else off the hook.

Precisely. And it relieves him of having to take real action aimed at addressing social inequities. He was punished; he was crucified. And then he is returned to a state of innocence, so he never has to take responsibility for what he's done. When he left the movement and was held up as this role model for anti-racism, and relieved of all the damage he'd done based on the nature of the attack-because it was a crucifixion-he then rebuilt his life based on this story. It replaced his identity.

So many of the milestones in his life were through the media. He met his wife because she'd seen him on TV. Earlier, he'd met Tom Metzger when he was invited to talk on Metzger's TV show about a white student group he'd formed.

At a certain point I realized that one of Greg's motivations in making this film was just to have a beginning, middle and end to the story. But because it took so long to make the film, it necessarily became messier and messier, and I kept asking increasingly more subtle questions, and this became uncomfortable for him. On the one hand I think he wants the truth told, because it's hard for anybody to live by a story that's not accurate or true. On the other hand he's fairly fragile, and it's hard for him to see himself in an ambiguous way.

Has he seen the film?

Yes. Initially he did not like it. We're not in contact now, so I've just heard from his wife and the sensei. I think he's saying now that he does like it. Since completing the film he has acknowledged staging the crucifixion.

He acknowledged it to other people?

Just to me.

You're not in contact because it was left badly between you?

We had an incident over the phone where he was verbally abusive, and I said I didn't want to carry on a relationship if that's the way he was going to be.

Making a film about an individual is so different from making a film that examines many people, or an institution. Everything depends on your relationship with that one person.

It's a delicate relationship. One has to remain respectful, no matter how one feels about the subject. That was a challenge for me because there were times when I had doubts about the way he represented himself. The only way he'd seen himself represented in the media was in a very dramatic way. When he was in the movement he was made out to be more evil, and therefore more powerful, than he actually was. When he was "crucified" and absolved of all guilt, he was granted a kind of innocence greater than he actually deserved. I think he wasn't prepared for my telling a subtle film. It was a challenge-trying to walk this middle line, trying to find the humanity in his story, without absolving him, without condemning him. It was like making a poetic film about a jackhammer.

He tells some very gripping stories. There's the childhood story of his father forcing him to beat up his black friend. After he finishes telling that story, he says, "Then I went back into my father's house and was praised." It's so eloquent. It's almost biblical.

As filmmakers we all know of great stories, but often the person who went through it is flat and uninteresting. But Greg's a good storyteller. There's also a downside to that. He's full of shit sometimes. He embellishes his stories. Again, it speaks to his self-mythologizing, this nostalgic myth-making that he engages in, about his father, about his white ancestors, a time when white men were unchallenged. If you're a white male you're born with a certain set of expectations, certain entitlements, but because we consider ourselves a classless society, there's this invisible but very real barrier based on class that someone like Greg is never going to transcend. I think there's an explosive frustration, and also a level of shame, that comes from that.

Can you explain the film's title?

I was looking for, initially, those moments when one wakes up and sees one's life in a direct way, free of all the stories and narratives that we place in our lives. I also wanted to call into question the idea that one changes in the blink of an eye, permanently. I wanted to point to change as a dynamic process; transformation is not a fait accompli, it's not a state that one reaches; it's constantly evolving. It also has something to do with the capacity to endure ambiguity about one's self in the world. There are those moments when he did see life in a more complex way. He hasn't stayed there-I mean, he's still struggling.

That brings me to Sylvia, the woman he fell in love with, who turned him around, although their relationship eventually didn't work out. She's very much a part of his narrative, with her parents having gone through the Holocaust.

Well, her parents did not go through the Holocaust. They were German intellectuals. They were Gentiles; they were not Jewish. It's hard to make that clear in the film. In fact, it makes it more interesting to me, because here he idealizes German folk and the Nazi era, and then he meets this woman whose parents were German folk and said "no," and objected to Nazi policies and left.

From the way he talks about Sylvia, you realize that Greg is who he is, on some level, because he simply has not been loved, has not had joy in his life. It's quite powerful.

There are people who have objected to the beauty shots in that section, but what I was trying to get at was that even if you are a violent neo-Nazi, love still can be transformative. Even if it's not permanent, you do have that moment of feeling alive and feeling related to the world through another person. I used that footage to evoke the feeling of falling in love. You see a woman on a swing, her hair swooshing through the frame, and flowers and this cloud spinning and trees spinning. I was trying to evoke the moment when there wasn't this rigid separation between Greg and the rest of the world.

What reactions have you had when you've screened the film at festivals?

The response has been positive, and it's heartening to hear some of the questions that come up, because I can see that people are really paying attention and thinking about it in an interesting way. But I don't know if that's because you get a selective audience at festivals, people who like independent films and are liberal-minded. So far it's been overwhelmingly positive.

So are you ready to make another film?

Oh, God. It was so emotionally and intellectually challenging. I feel quite depleted. It was often like being in the middle of a wilderness of mirrors and trying to find some truth in that.

Blink airs in the Bay Area at 10 pm on July 18 on the PBS series P.O.V.

K.M. Soehnlein's novel, The World of Normal Boys (www.normalboys.com), will be published in September.